SPEAKER_00 0:18

Ida Bell is a Montreal-based collector, generative art enthusiast, and self-described entrepreneurs. Earlier this month, she launched Tez City, a social platform built for Tezos artists and collectors. Ida, welcome to Tez Talks.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Well, just for the record, this is this is my first presence ever on uh video. Like on I know you probably post it on YouTube. So this is my first time. So um if I uh uh sound uh not like a media person, that's the explanation. It's the first time I'm live on a um on an internet uh screen or video. So I'm absolutely honored to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Thank you. Great, you're very kind, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

I was reading about your background and I came across something I had to ask. Your grandfather apparently collected tens of thousands of clocks.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Oh, yes, yeah, I did mention it once in one interview. Yes, uh, you're right. What what what's what's the story there? Can you like it? I don't know. Well, I was a little kid and uh I I just remember when I whenever I went to when went to his house, it was like top to bottom, edge to edge, filled with clocks on the wall. And uh it was an impressive thing to see. Like there were there were thousands of different kinds of clocks, and he just he just liked clocks. I don't know, maybe like on a um uh like uh on a uh uh philosophical level, maybe he was just keeping track of time. Or uh I I don't know what what what the problem with being a kid and experiencing that is I never uh I was not old enough to be able to have a philosophical talk with him to ask him what was what what was really going on in his mind doing this. But uh that was a visible collector uh um trait that I observed. So that's that's that's what I'm sure of, but I don't know why he was doing that. It was interesting. And uh when he passed away uh uh at 7 p.m. Um all the clocks stopped, uh they they stopped all the clocks and removed all the batteries to make them stop at exactly 7 p.m. So that was interesting. I remember the years uh the like the the the the next few years when I was visiting my grandma, this the clocks were all there, but none of them were working. They were exact showing 7 p.m. But that's just an a fun fact, an interesting detail, not relevant.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

But well, I I mean that I bet those clocks have been running his whole life and had them all stop. Like it's it's meaningful, it's a point. Yeah, that's that's a powerful point. So did you start collecting things yourself when you were young?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Oh uh yes, uh I've I I I love collecting old things, uh antique and and uh uh like I I uh I I love uh visiting antique stores and finding things that are just left there and no one's paying attention to them and I find some value in them. Um I'm also a big nerd, so I've uh I've collected um uh comic books and video games. And uh the fun thing is I rarely play video games because I don't have the time, but I just like having them. So uh on Steam, my game library is uh more than 2,000 games, so I I've got a tag, I've got a gamer god tag on Steam. And uh I I have like thousands of graphic novels, but I'm not I don't play them. That just makes me feel guilty. I'm like hoping one day uh my kids grow up and enjoy a use of game collection that are all outdated and not fun anymore.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

You really are a deep down a collector, aren't you? There's just something you have you are drawn to these things, they're and they're good things. Don't don't worry, it's it's you're not uh I guess what is the hoarder, it's a difference, it's a clear difference. You have taste.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

You know, I have I have that passion and uh and and and comic uh in comic art and graphic novels. So I I you just before NFTs and digital art, my passion was to go to uh the the artist uh uh area of comic cons and just get to know the artists in person. And I I always thought like that that kind of art was so underappreciated just because it's uh it looks fun and it's uh you know uh it doesn't get that fine art appreciation that it deserves. But it all the traits are there, like there's uh the there are concepts, there are emotions, there's they're interesting expressions, they're great artists that definitely deserve a lot of attention. So that's that's the closest I got to to digital collecting digital art just before I uh started collecting um digital art as NFTs, which is a taboo word now, no one says it anymore. But I'm I'm not shy of that either.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Let's go back to it. You've you found generative art through is it gen.art and uh the friends you met on Clubhouse. Do you remember the first thing that really grabbed your attention?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Um well I I I have a background in uh computer engineering and I I'm I'm uh uh well familiar with uh algorithms and uh computer architecture, and uh I've I've even done coding in assembly. I I know I know I know enough to know how to appreciate generative art. Like when I see a work by uh like uh Peter Bosma, I you know, I get wowed. I feel like, wow, this is it, you know. Like look at that thing, look at that uh realistic 3D object with all the lighting and realism with you know pure code and even restricted within certain um kilobytes of code, certain number of characters. That's that's amazing, that's marvelous. And uh when I when I see like Zach Lieberman's work with uh with lighting and all the playful things he does, uh I love that. You know, it's it's you know, as I said, it's to me, it's not about um uh uh uh you know it's not about uh speculation and collecting art just so they can get expensive. And I feel great that I sold them and made it made a lot of profit. That's just not my thing. My my main business is in the industry and manufacturing, and it's in you know, China and Hong Kong. It's a total totally different area. But this is just a personal appreciation of the craft. Or like uh when I first saw uh uh uh uh uh Zai Khan's work, I was amazed at how you can create a garden like that, a line art garden with with such uh such detailed, uh, you know, so so so meticulously created, uh, that is just nearly humanly impossible to create by hand, but there it is, and it's all algorithm, you know, emerging like that. That's that's beautiful, that's amazing. And if I may now add.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Well, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. I don't want to interrupt. Keep going, please.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

No, no, no, no. Just yeah, again, I thought I warned you about me starting to talk about my passion and what I appreciate. So um I know that AI is making everyone nervous. Uh so AI is uh AI is uh um uh uh kind of uh uh giving the idea that uh why do we have generative art now? Because uh like the AI can code it and there's no way to verify it if a person did it or AI. And um, I was having a discussion with a friend about this, and I feel like one of the likely outcomes is that yes, a new generative artist, it will be very hard for a new brilliant generative artist to emerge because verification is almost impossible. Um uh it's not a handmade thing that some expert can tell if it's made by hand or machine, it's code. So it's it will be near near near imp nearly impossible to tell if this man-made or not. But uh my optimism comes from the fact that the ones that already did it, uh like uh Zan Kenz, Zach Lieberman, Peter Posma, Kim Osendorf, and I love you, Kim Osendorf, you're great. Uh I I mean I I I forgot about to mention his thing, but and many, many artists like Rich Poole, who is no longer among us, not in a sad way, he's just he's just uh I'm hoping to bring him back through Test City. So yeah, I mean, those people, if in year 2037 launched a generative artwork or sorry, uh uh uh uh create a generative artwork, I personally, and I hope the market and and and this environment, this environment will still recognize it as handmade generative art because we know the person, and that person was there long before AI uh started messing things up. So yeah, sorry. I'm not I don't want to talk too much in uh but that's what I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I mean yeah, they're great points and and it I'm with you. I think the it's gonna be hard. I agree with you. It's gonna be very hard to tell the craftsmanship unless we have that author or that that artist there to say I I did I did in fact author this. So and we still we respect that to this day. I mean, there are I think research papers and whatnot going through that right now. So well, you mentioned it. I want to go there. Let's let's talk about Test City. You announced Test City, you said as a collector, you wanted more ways to support artists between purchases. Was there a particular experience that made you want to do something about that specifically?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yes. Uh one experience, and I don't I don't criticize it as a bad thing, but one one thing I uh uh well, a combination of factors. I I try to mention as many as I can remember. One is that uh I I wanted a Tezos environment, an environment based on a layer one blockchain that works well and is fast and already has a great art community. Um I wanted I wanted that uh to be the basis of a social network where we don't waste our time getting distracted by all the rage baiting on eggs, because you know, we waste a lot of our time scrolling past rage baiting, like heated political debates until we get to uh a work by Peter Pasma. You know, like I have I wasted a lot of time. So I wanted an environment where uh those distractions don't exist, uh hopefully. And then the second reason was again, uh I I I I talked to a lot of artists and I realized they they get uh uh kind of disillusioned by the by by uh the ups and lows and by the by the uh volatility of the crypto space, and their talents and their brilliance kind of disappears from the space. And that's that's sad. Uh like Yasek, uh I hope I pronounced his name correctly. Like Yasek Martuzevich, uh the the uh and uh and uh and the rich pool, uh the two names that come to my mind that are no longer working in generative art. They're not they're not they're not nowhere to be seen, they're not active on X. That brilliance not appearing anymore is sad. And I I have to do something about that. So um I want Test City to be a space where brilliance continues to be expressed, and it's not dependent on how high, how how hot the NFT market is, and uh how the crypto people are speculating and uh the amassing NFTs to sell them so you know without having any affection for the for the craft, you know. I I want it a space where that is not a factor. The the crypto and NFD is not a factor, but the craft and appreciation of the craft uh is is is is what what what the determining factor is. So I want I want Yassek and Rispool to come back and and create and get supported by thousands of people who who tip and and uh pay for subscription to their material, and it doesn't even have to be about NFTs like okay, fine, just just create and let us enjoy the craft and appreciate it and support you in you know by spending any amount that it's just you know, we're it's just a cup of coffee you buy at Starbucks every single morning. But if thousands of people do that, YASEC can continue to create miracles. You know, I I don't want YASEC to go away just because crypto and NFTs are not appreciating it, you know, and and then the third one, which is most which is pretty important. Um I'm sorry, I heard a beep in my airport just in case it gets disconnected. I can hear you still from my screen. So um if uh and then again, another problem is that there are a lot of platforms and groups and galleries that are brilliant. Again, I say it with with I'm not criticizing them. I'm a huge fan of a lot of these galleries. I love what Verse is doing, I love what Heft is doing. Heft Adam is a friend, I love what he's doing. And then there's RGBMTLY Strano and friends, love what they're doing, but uh I kind of see the same names in those groups over and over again. It's not a criticism. I understand that uh familiarity plays a role in how you determine value because you know that artist will not disappoint you. So you want to work with that person, but I wanted a place that has no affiliation, that has no affiliation with anybody, that is not uh a closed circle of certain group of artists that know each other so well. I want it to be organic and I want it to be open and inclusive to everybody, and I I want the market to decide who they want to support and who they want to you know to embrace. Again, huge respect to the names I mentioned. I love what they're doing. I I'm a collector of all of these spaces, so uh it kind of like uh uh uh again massive shout out to Seifert uh for creating FX Hash. He is like always in my heart. What a man, you know. I've had the pleasure of meeting him once or twice, I don't remember it, but what a brilliant mind uh who, due to circumstances, unfortunately have to stop working on FX hash. But wow, that that is that FX hash is the closest to the philosophy of Test City in a sense that there was no gatekeeping, there was no curating, it was just there for brilliant code to appear, and then you would be, you would be the one to decide if a certain piece of work, if a certain artwork has any value or not. FX hash was fantastic, and so many artists emerged from FX Hash that are now being curated. And uh, you know, you know, well, you've been in this space, if you've been in the space long, I mean you know, right? So um uh without FX Hash, those artists wouldn't emerge to be curated by galleries now. So why only create another space and not not restricted to generative art, to all kinds of digital art um and even physical art, and allow the community to to support them, to give them space to grow and to to emerge and grow and and and become big enough to be curated eventually. Nothing against galleries, but why don't we create uh uh the uh uh the the the the the environment where those talents can appear and feel supported and continue working to be eventually curated by galleries. So that was the philosophy of Test City. Um and again, while I was designing it, uh designing like the the mechanics, I uh I uh uh uh deliberately and intentionally I I avoided anything uh uh about like anything to I didn't want it to have anything to do with meme points, speculation, trading, uh trading stuff. That the stuff that brought Warcast down, I believe the Forecaster was excellent, but uh to see people's activity motivated by DGEN tips was depressing. It was honestly depressing. To see people like excitedly entering a new platform just so that it can buy something at the right time and sell it at the right time, not my thing, not what I wanted at all. But now imagine if people are excitedly creating and sharing higher quality work, more innovative stuff with no gatekeeping, again for financial profit. Why not? I mean, I I love profit as a business person, I'm I'm I love profit, but let let value bring profit, not not speculation. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Can you say that again?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Can you say that again? Say that first one. Let let what bring profit?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Let value and brilliance bring profit. Yes, I know how you feel. I've been I've been craving that. That's why I that's why I created test city. That's exactly the point.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

So okay, so uh I Ida, what was the first thing you did when you were like this has to be done? What's the first thing you did?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Uh uh I talked to artists, a lot of artists. I I asked them what they want. Uh uh before I uh talked to my company's uh software people, I thought I thought like we really need I know my perspective, I know what I feel is lacking. And uh then artists told me things that uh they that that would would be more interesting to them, like uh uh the the the Patreon system on social media. Because at first I just had a social media, I just wanted to get rid of Twitter uh to not waste so much time scrolling. But then I was told like a Patreon feature would be great because Patreon is working for artists in a non-crypto uh way. So why why don't we create that kind of mechanism combined with something that would uh help us not have to go on Twitter all the time? And uh yeah, uh they they told me uh that uh if if you create something like that, then uh it would be very interesting. We can we can create and not worry about you know um uh you know creating artwork that would just sell so we can uh live, you know. Um we we don't have to uh you know uh uh draw a picture of a pretty girl in a certain pose just so that we can get a quick uh uh five tests to do to move on to the next. So uh that that's that that that was the first thought, you know. That and and it's working, it's it's amazing. So sorry, it's been a week and uh there's so much activity. I I love seeing some people are spending more time on Test City than Twitter, which which I I I get thrilled by. It's such a dopamine uh uh rush. That's amazing. It's so good to see that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Now, for someone who's never visited TES City, can you walk me through it? Say I'm an artist signing up today. What what can I do?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Um well the the the the environment looks very familiar. It a lot of things look just like Twitter. Uh but what is uh what what is different from Twitter, you will you will realize you will find those differences little by little. At first, you just sign up instead of your username and password and email and and everything. Um uh you you use your Tesla's wallet to connect and create an account. Uh, but I have to mention this is step one. We have a lot of plans. Sign up by emails will become possible. Again, sorry if I'm opening up another topic, but it's important. No, no, you're one of the philosophies. One of the philosophies I I have, one of the dreams that I have, and I'm working hard on it, is not to bring everyone that is already on Tesos on Test City and make them share and be happy. And you know, uh, that's not it. I sound miserable. Every content creator, yeah, because Tesla's is not really so busy these days, uh, you know, uh I want I want to onboard millions of people on Tesos and make them use Tesla's. Uh that's what I want. So I'm talking to social media influencers with millions of followers. I want to, before I present them, uh I'm I'm talking to them, I'm just playing with the idea. And then before uh I'm I'm working on solutions that uh onboard them effortlessly. We are building, we're building a wallet solution that is integrated into a city that uh allows a social media influencer, a non-crypto person, to just sign up by email uh like they do any other place with with a wallet address attached to it, embedded in the system, something like what Reddit Reddit does, I guess, uh, or Wordcast used to do or Rodeo. Um there are platforms that try to do it. Um and then uh to use the financial mechanics of the platform, they will have to use Tezos. And I want to build tools that make the onboarding as smooth and easy as possible for them. So that's the dream. So we don't want to just depend on whoever is on Tesos right now. That would be that would be a little bit boring, to be honest. You know, it's just we we I love the the the community, but we need more people, and it eventually that benefits everybody. Um yeah, but I I know there are there are obstacles, it will be a very complicated process, but that's that's the dream. It's like what were we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 21:38

What we're talking about, I was like uh walking you through and say Yeah, we're we're walking through with a new artist, and I'm like, yeah, as a new artist, I feel all that pain. I've I'm there with you. I feel it. Uh as a new person into this space, it there's a lot of noise, and you're doing an amazing job putting a laser focus on what really means probably the most to a lot of. People. This is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

So like give me an example. Like, like uh, I I I was able to get an invite code. I snuck one from a friend, and uh thank you, Yoshi. And I uh I got in there and I was um my personal opinion, I went, holy crap, uh, this is way familiar. This is uncannyly familiar, yet very foreign because it's so new, and uh the feed is I mean, all social media has a feed, you know, you expect it now. It's it's if you if you get some app, I guess, and it doesn't have a front page, you're thinking there's something missing these days, I guess. Um this was just an amazing experience for me as a new user. I I didn't feel overwhelmed, but at the same time I felt like I was missing out already. Like there's can you go into maybe like talk about the supporter side about it a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Um well uh I I'm happy you experienced it that way because I wanted it to be familiar. It was a lot of work was done to make the UI less intimidating that than Forecaster. You know, I remember when a new users uh came uh when I'm Forecaster, they were they were intimidated, but oh my god, look at all those frames and stuff and all the DJ. What is DJ and what's going on here? I wanted to prevent that. I wanted to just so at first it looks pretty simple, but then there's so much more to it. Um uh there's a lot of Tesla's integration in it. Um uh well uh you first first your assets get recognized in your wallet uh because we want to know who you are. Um I I want again, I have no affiliation with Mark Knoll and George uh uh Tezards and um uh small skulls. There's zero affiliation. Again, that was a deliberate thing. I I told you I didn't want I didn't want a group of buddies uh scratching each other's backs, so it was a surprise to them too, I guess. I did that because that was the legacy of Tezos. That was a history, those two collections are the history of Tezos in generative and non-generative circles. There's nothing more, I I don't know anything more uh defining than that in terms of a PFU collection that's on Tesos. So I thought we have to recognize that, and we have to recognize Zancan for being the biggest on Tesos. So the three, it will it will immediately get recognized in your wallet. And then I also wanted your profile to appreciate your total the TDH, the total days held idea. Uh idea is that we need to know how many for how many days you've been holding a Zankan piece or a small skull. Because again, I want to know who's as as passionate and as serious as me, you know. Like if you if your TDH is is is low, no problem with that. But then I you then I do think about a possibility that you could be a trader, which is also legitimate. But uh that's the way we you you I measure passion personally. Like I know how much do you enjoy this, you know. Um again, these are fluid. If if I get uh the kind of feedback that look, you need to give me a chance to show my passion too. And my TDH is one and I feel bad. Okay, we will think about that. We'll we'll find other ways to show your credibility and your appreciation of the crap.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I mean, we all have to start a day one, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I don't want it to be like uh uh something that to upset a lot of people who join the platform. Um, but I thought it was a nice touch uh at first because uh uh these are the things I personally like so much. Um and um then and so that's that's one aspect. And the other thing is uh uh I I wanted artists to immediately have an access to the to the list of their top collectors, so there is based on uh which the Tesla's people may not like based on the US dollar amount in spent on that artist for the works currently held in those wallets. So as an artist, uh, because you you have to worry about the finances too, you need to think about money. So you you have acts on your profile, you have act you can generate a list of your uh top collectors and know who spent more money on your art, which matters a lot, which means who believe I know there are other indicators, but this is one reliable indicator of how much does an a collector believe in your work. Um, so there are tools, and and we're working on a lot of other tools. We actually have already built a lot of analytical tools that we have not launched yet because they're being stress tested. Um, so tons of tons of Tesos analytical uh tools that artists will find very useful. Um, and again, in bracket, I want to eventually use the word content instead of art because as of as we onboard millions of social media people on Test City, we don't want to look like a closed art art community. We want to appreciate any kind of content um like Patreon does. But at the moment it's art. So you can expect that at some point we will focus on content and not just art. Um and uh so yeah, there will be there will be a lot of toys to play with. It will be an interesting uh platform. Uh we we have we have tons of plans, tons of ideas. There, there are so many creative people working on it. And I'm interacting with artists and collectors and the community every day. And I'm very open to suggestions. We make changes instantly as we uh we we we are very open to uh uh to things that make it nicer for people. Like I talk to uh um uh media people, podcasters, and I want to uh we are working on on tools and and environments that that that are podcast friendly, uh like a panel for podcasters. You know, for any kind of uh for any type of content creator, we want to make his face. And then at the same time, we want to make sure the that forecaster syndrome won't happen. It won't get too complicated for people to navigate and say, oh my god, this is too much. Uh let me go back on Twitter. Uh so yeah, it's it's it's a challenge to make all of these things work out of all these tools and toys and and stuff and make it accessible and easy to navigate.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Ida, what's something you'd love to see artists doing on Ted City, say six months from now?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Um, I want them to make tons of money uh uh and be very successful. And um uh but again, tons of money by not trading meme coins, tons of money by expressing their brilliance as crazily as possible. Like I wanna I wanna see like rich pool come back and create a structure like Asequia, but like Asequia 2, you know, and then I want to see that on Test City and I want him to make millions uh uh from people who uh appreciate the creation of Asequia 2. So look at that, you know, there are new things happening in this structure. That's what I want to see in six months. Um so uh again, as a business person, I I love money and profit, but I wanted to have a have uh to have I want uh a genuine uh value, inherent value, I call it, uh, in my conversations. I said inherent value, real value, real craftsmanship, brilliance to turn into profit. If we can't do that on Test City, we've made it.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Value. I love it. Yeah, well, what would you tell someone minting or collecting their very first piece tomorrow?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Um minting their very first piece, I would uh I would ask them to be patient and uh not get disheartened by how quiet the space is. And I would I would uh I would ask them to uh if they mint it, I wanted to share it on uh test city and see how much attention it gets from people who are in the space already. Uh to to kind of uh test the waters by just seeing how how how many likes or tips they get, the how what feedback they get from the community. But again, I would I would want them to be patient because this is not uh 21, 2021, 22, or it's it's not a heated market anymore. So uh create good value, do your best, and then see what happens. Um that's that's what I would tell uh I would tell them. And I would tell them to be careful with their presence on the blockchain. Don't create things that you will regret later because it will stay there forever, you know. Do your best.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

That's like old internet advice.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yeah, I you know, I've I I've worked with a lot of brilliant artists, very talented artists that have like that have that have minted things that are not them at all. It's just happened, you know. Like a brilliant physical artist who has one low effort Leonardo output, uh uh Leonardo AI output somewhere in the middle. Like, I don't think you know it AI is great, but that doesn't belong here. I I would, you know, uh it it kind of stains the rest, it kind of not well stain is a negative word, it's just it just doesn't belong there, you know. And um I would want to be very careful, plan it really well. Again, sorry, I'm talking too much. An excellent example, I would tell every artist uh if generative, well, uh there are many examples I already gave. Non-generative digital artists that want to mint their first piece, I would say learn from Gengoya. Learn from Gengoya how to be organized, tidy, and clean with your with your work. Like, see how just look at his profile, look at his portfolio, and see how he's done it. He is brilliant at presentation, cleanliness, tidiness, presentation. It just looks fantastic. Like the waffles, the the the work he's done, regardless of whether you like that kind of art or not, that way of working is what I would advise any artist to to pay very close attention to when entering this space.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Well, Ida, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been a pleasure to finally get a chance to meet you and learn more about Tez City. I really do appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Likewise, it was such a nice conversation. Thank you for the opportunity to uh, you know, uh you know uh to express my passion so much and talk so much. You've been very uh patient.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Well, thank you. And thanks to everybody watching. Uh that's it for this episode of Tez Talks. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Thank you. Have a good day.

unknown 32:56

Bye.