Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Tez Talks Radio. I am your host, marisa True, and today I am joined by Michael Alexander, otherwise known as Mech, a pixel artist, designer and developer, as well as one of the team members behind Subjectxyz, a personalized visual-first art collecting dashboard on Tezos. So welcome to the show. How are you today?

Speaker 2: 0:20

Thanks a lot, marisa Been. Well, it's a good morning right now in Indonesia.

Speaker 1: 0:26

So to get things started and for those who may not know you, can you introduce yourself and basically share how you first got involved in the Web3 space?

Speaker 2: 0:37

Yeah, for sure, I'm not always an artist or a developer. For that regard, I am starting as a designer. I've been co-founding my own design studio in Indonesia for about 14 years already as the principal designer. But, yeah, just recently got into the Tazos community in 2022 because of COVID and the burnouts, because you have to maintain a studio in a really bad economy. So I really need to get something like an avenue for me to express myself in it, in the sense that the design couldn't. Yeah, texas felt just like fun for me, like the old community the FFFF found is like a blog site basically, and also just like Cargo Collective. It has the whole recipe for community and art that I longed for for about years years ago, so it just felt like home already on Tezos. So that's basically my journey, from design and then becoming an artist. It's still really weird to call myself an artist, but, yeah, eventually I become an artist in 2010 I think it's a very common experience where artists struggle to identify themselves as artists.

Speaker 1: 1:52

What was it that sort of pushed your transition into digital art and nfts? What was it that really drew you in?

Speaker 2: 2:00

well, to be honest, let's be honest with you in in 2021, I heard about the Ethereum community and also the NFT, whole line yards and it didn't really click to me because it felt like a Ponzi. So I always tell my friends who are actively forging for me Matt, you got to get into the NFT because you are a feasible person. I just couldn't really get myself into the, into the community, because it felt like it's um artificial, so to speak. Uh, it's based on my observation back in the days, but I think what really breaks it for me in the sense of the digital art and the, the nft blockchain anything, is that the taszos on 2022, my partner come to me and say so, tezos doesn't really felt like all the things that you say.

Speaker 2: 2:52

You just have to imagine it, just like Behance or DeviantArt, which is like a website for art collection and also display, and you just have to imagine yourself being in that website again, because I used those two websites extensively back in the past, back when I was still aspired to be an artist. So, yeah, it just felt like using DeviantArt and Behance again, maybe for some part, and also partially Tumblr, which is found, and also the Cargill Collective that I talk about, yeah, but me doing art has been my whole childhood perhaps, and then slowly transitioning into the digital art ever since I got my own, my own computer, my first computer and, yeah, and pixel art itself is because I am a gamer myself and I couldn't really play 3d games because it just made me a little bit very dizzy. So even though though in the 2000s the 3D games are really take off, I just couldn't bring myself to play it. So I stick into my 2D and pixel art games mostly and it just, you know, segue into my adulthood, into the artists right now. That's basically the story.

Speaker 1: 4:00

I think it's super interesting because I remember when I first sort of delved into the NFT space, one of the first comparisons I made, at least in the art respect, was DeviantArt and saying you know, if you're giving opportunity to present people's art but also give them ownership over it, it was sort of this understandable platform but in a way that just had this like extra ownership component. So that's super interesting. And also, I think you know, when it came to HicketNunk, there was also a more straightforward minting process than I think existed on other blockchains at the time, especially, you know, as it related to gas fees and affordability, and you know the different models. You know your online presence and this is just based on my general background. Research of you covers a fair mix of you know there's art, there's tech, there's a little bit of cultural commentary in terms of what's happening within community spaces. So has this had an impact on your own artistic identity?

Speaker 2: 4:49

yeah, oh yeah, a lot. I wasn't really a fan of fine art nine years ago, I believe because you know, in indonesia things are really tricky if you want to be an artist. It's only like a really really small subset of people who can, who can make a living out of the fine art, and it got me a little bit more, you know, hating the whole fine art corridor back in the days Because you know there's only a certain kind of people who can make money out of it and mostly it's because, well, on top of the art it's just really good and I'm not good enough back in the days, but also in the other senses that the uh, you really need to make a social bridge into the curators and also the traditional art galleries and the whole things you know behind it. I just couldn't bring myself into that area as well. But I think it's just mostly an excuse because my art wasn't really good enough back in the day, so I couldn't really make myself out of the fine art. But yeah, I think it was really important for the web 3 itself.

Speaker 2: 5:46

It's I'm I'm free to do what I really want, and I think the the other thing that makes me really got into fine art again. Is that the uh, the ability for me to talk with the artists directly. I mean, if you compare it into the real world fine art scene, it's just really hard for you to talk with the artists, right? You couldn't really share your thoughts, you couldn't really share about what they have in mind in their artworks, perhaps, and also, like, vice versa, what they have in mind when we have our artworks a display, and in online it's just instantaneous, not really gatekeep like in real life.

Speaker 2: 6:21

So I think it has a huge impact for me to be receptive again into the world of fine art, maybe because I was really logical, leaning back in the days, because I have to run my design studio, I have to make a living and everything is just, you know well, sadly enough, based on how much money I could get in a month for me to to want to do something. And, yeah, I think it's beneficial in that regards and also made me more active to be, you know, um, like you said, the cultural commentary and also sharing the art and also reposting the people's artworks in the uh, in twitter and also wallcasts partially, and also made me more into the mystical side of life, I think. Think it's just wonderful the whole three years in the space. Really love it.

Speaker 1: 7:07

So it was a lot to do with, you know, just having access to a creative community, sort of opening up the idea of what qualified as good art beyond, I guess, the traditional art realm, and then also understanding that there was kind of just a lot more dynamism to it than basically how much you could sell it for, which I think is a wonderful thing that the NFT space sort of brought in.

Speaker 1: 7:29

And I do also think that, you know, in the traditional art space they sort of came the other way and realized that there was merit to what was being created and it was worth a closer look, which gave, I guess, artists like yourself a bit more of an opportunity than previously existed. Yes, absolutely, that's certainly the case, a bit more of an opportunity than previously existed.

Speaker 2: 7:44

Yes, absolutely yeah, that's, that's certainly the case. I think also, like the, the ability for you to be able to turn out a lot more compared to what the traditional artwork has, because naturally, if you are doing the physicals, it's going to be like taking a lot more time to prepare for the exhibitions, for the gallery, for the people to want to come into your site I mean your, your place, your exhibition place, and in online you can just naturally do it. But before the Web3, it felt just like a blocked site, which is exactly what the found and the cargo collective community did back in the days. But I think the difference between Web3 is that the ability for the, like you said, the ownership and the immutability of the artwork itself, and I don't know, I think, because I'm speaking ownership and the immutability of the artwork itself, and I don't like, I think, because I am speaking as a collector myself as well the the action for me to actually put a little bit of money and buying certain kinds of artwork.

Speaker 2: 8:35

It made me more committed to be inspired by the things that I collected and also to the artists that I I am really a fan of, so I talk with them not only because I just want to, you know, collect the artworks, because I genuinely just really like them as an artist and a human being and also, as you know, on top of the really great art and you know, to be able to support them in the sense of directly supporting them without, you know, like extra layers. It's just felt really, really good and it hasn't been there in in web, thus far, I believe, well, apart from patreon maybe, but there's no immutability, there's no ownership yeah, I think I think some of the early dynamics of, you know, being able to connect collectors, fans, communities closer with the creator base has existed.

Speaker 1: 9:22

But I think that that missing piece was always ownership. That missing like that proof of the clarity of that relationship. And I guess it goes both ways, because if you are both a collector and an artist, there's this like reciprocal relationship that takes place. So if we were to delve further into your art and for those in our audience that are perhaps unfamiliar with some of your work, how would you actually describe your you know your artistic style, what are the themes that you explore and what's sort of your Web3 artist persona?

Speaker 2: 9:50

Persona. Okay, it's just me. Basically, I think a lot of artists will say the same we don't really mask ourselves because we want to create for the long run. It's really tiring for you to use like a persona. I think you can only maintain for about like three years or two years and then you forgot about the persona and then the cracks just shown in between what you do or what you say. So I think it's just much more sustainable for you to be you and just show yourself.

Speaker 2: 10:16

But the artwork itself, it's pixel art mostly. I think I started as a more holistic pixel art like common pixel art types of artwork, and then gradually I moved out into a really specific genre of pixel art itself, which is dithering, where you make a lot of dots just like halftones, but basically it's pixel, it is digital. And then lately I think in the last one or two months behind I I've started to move into something else, because I undergo into a transformation in my personality. Right now haven't been reaching the end just yet, of course, but it affects me in how I created my art books as well. I think it converged a lot of the things that I do in real life because of that one.

Speaker 2: 11:05

So art and design. I make fonts and make typefaces and then I use it in my artwork as well. I use my design skill and also my artistic skill and coding. So lately in the past maybe like two months I believe I've been converging all of the stuff together into into one, you know, into one vessel. You might call it art, you might call it something else, but yeah, um, it's still just pixel stuff, I mean regardless. So it started with pixel and then right now it's still pixel nonetheless, so you can just call me a pixel artist maybe so I mean, you said that your art style evolved fairly recently because you were sort of going through a personal shift yourself.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Where has that taken? Your art, what was it before and then? What is it turning into now?

Speaker 2: 11:50

again, this is not really well divine in my mind just yet, but I think the grand, the grand theme of the transformation is, um, I became more receptive into things that are back in the days I think to be. This is complete nonsense, like the mystical things, the, you know, like the mumbo jumbos. It's a complete nonsense and it's a fun waste of time. But I think in the last two months it became. It has been felt for about a year already, I think, but it has just taken shape in the form of, you know, because I soak it in like daily and my experience with art it just slowly opening my way into. Maybe there's something in life that is not really 1 plus 1 equals 2. Maybe there's really something else about it, and it's not metaphysics as well, because I I mean, I'm well aware about the meta reality as well, but I think it's just something else. So I think that the little gateway that I received from my you know, like my immersion into the, the world of fine art in webtape, made me able to to conceive some concepts that I I I couldn't really think maybe before about. You know, like, my recent collection is talking about someone who is undergoing a memory loss because of the mercury poisoning.

Speaker 2: 13:15

I mean, back in the days I would just say, oh, this is complete nonsense, like what are you talking about? But I think I could do it right now because I am, I'm more receptive. So I think, objectively, it became, it made me more serious minded. Instead of just making artwork, like you know, like single piece each of the week or maybe each of the month, right now I I'm more inclined to be, you know, making a whole collection first and then try to piece the puzzle in what I? I, what I really want to say from this one, because I I don't really have like a pre-determined concept or pre-determined stories. I I just let my limbs moving when I create the artwork and then I just piece it together. Maybe I want to talk something about this one right now, because on the parallel side, on my mind journey and also my soul journey, perhaps I'm also in a relatively same place with what I do, maybe something like that, melissa, again, it's not really well defined right now I'm still undergoing a long, long survey.

Speaker 1: 14:16

No, I think it sounds super interesting because I think what you're alluding to is that you sort of broaden your horizons, but it's also just impacted the creative process fundamentally Because, as you said, if you're going from creating standalone pieces to basically trying to stitch together a series and understanding that there is a thread that binds them, but not trying to predetermine that thread and sort of letting the art speak for itself, I mean, that is art, I think, or at least how many would define it especially. You know it's like it's definitely how I would define it. So would you say that this creative process sort of evolved because of your interactivity with NFTs and just this constant sort of experimentation with your work, or do you think that this was sort of this wave that was generally coming as a part of your artistic evolution, regardless?

Speaker 2: 15:04

Definitely not myself. I mean, I've been waiting for some kind of a transformation for about nine years already, behind Marisa, because I ran my studio for about 14 years and the last nine years it's full of me. Just, you know making numbers up, not making numbers up, but you know making ends meet and then paying my designers, paying my partners as well. So I don't think it can be done if I'm doing it myself. Pretty sure of it. Yeah, so it has to be an outside force which allows me to break my my walls in my creative journey, perhaps. So it's just really really gentle.

Speaker 2: 15:42

In my first year I became to be more receptive into creating art again and then on the second year I began to meet a lot of wonderful people. I'm not talking about the collectors specifically, but fellow artists. Like you know, I'm able to actually talk with ed marola, for instance, and then to to understand, like his thought process even though that is not a direct explanation on what he did, but on what he wrote daily and also what he shared daily. I could just, you know, sort of like piece the puzzle together and then just being in a complete and what he did, and also Gio Mariani they are just really amazing pixel artists. And then, on the third year of my journey, which is right now, it became more broad, so I found my inspirations from the artists, from the writers in the space as well.

Speaker 2: 16:33

But more simply about the uh. You know the mystical side of things as well, uh, which I often found in my ex lately because I'm studying the uh. You know like the, the nonsense side of life, if you want to call it that, yeah, uh, but I really like it, I think, very happy right now, I think my iq maybe dropped by you know, like 10 points or something, I don't care, I'm really happy about it. I I found to be, you know, I found myself to be more happy, more productive as well, I think.

Speaker 1: 17:01

I think it's just really important and yeah, it's super interesting because it sounds like, basically, your exploration into, you know, digital creation, these online communities of artists and collectors and you know, just being exposed to their ideas, their perspectives and then transposing them back into real life. And I wouldn't call it nonsense as much as you know, just, uh, an open-mindedness to alternative forms of of intelligence. I do consider it a different level of knowledge and insight that just isn't grounded in, I guess you know, what we can perceive and measure. So I think that's a, that's a realm many go down and I think there's there's no shame in that whatsoever.

Speaker 2: 17:39

I think it's actually quite poignant I hope so many will think otherwise, but I don't care again it's?

Speaker 1: 17:46

yeah, I think it's, it's. You know, it's one of those things where you have to challenge yourself, to put down your preconceived notions of you know what counts and what doesn't, or what's considered valuable and what isn't, and trying to trying to incorporate it in your own life, so bringing this more towards. You know your work on tezos. Can you tell me more about subject? And you know, as I mentioned before, it's a platform for digital collectibles. So what inspired it? What was the gap that it was trying to fill? And you know what's it doing currently?

Speaker 2: 18:18

um well, yeah, subject is a really uh nice segue in my transformation in the space as well. I think back in uh well, accurately in september 2024. I've been looking for a partner to build something in Tezos because I want to give back and also I think there's a void of need that has to be filled in the space as well. Well, at least from my perspective as an art collector, I think my search has been undergoing from February 2024. To be honest, I've been looking for any developer. Do you want to go with me and create an app, perhaps? But no one answered. And then in September, I found Jack Tezos. So shout out to Jack Tezos. And then, in September, we also band together and make our own lab, which is Dogadog Lab, and Subject is our own, our first app that we created in the lab itself.

Speaker 2: 19:18

So what it does basically is that, if you want to because we are a fan of a lot, I am a fan of a lot of artists, right, and I found it to be really hard for myself to open Object. Object is really great, I mean. But I think, if I want to laser, focus my attention into certain kinds of artists, there's no feature just yet in the space right now. Well, there's also NFT Biker, then there's also Netlify or Testop, but I think there's still something that could be improved or maybe improvised from what they have. So Subject is that one If you have a certain kinds of artists that you really like and you often miss their release and you often miss their listing.

Speaker 2: 20:01

So Subject is a dashboard that you can follow a lot of the artists in Tezos community by just following their wallet and then it will automatically notify you if they mint an artwork that is new or if they they put an option live in the in the tasers marketplaces.

Speaker 2: 20:19

It could be an object it could be in via whether if they they want to list their editions or one-on-one. And subject is there to make it more simple for you to track, maybe like 150 artists maximum right now, because we are still in beta, but if you have, like most favorite artists, you can just go into subject and follow the 20 people inside it and then it will just automatically track all of the artworks and it can be used as the tools for you to buy the artworks and also for the tools for you to if you're bored in x, because there's a lot of political um dissent and also you know people being funny and then you can just go to subject and then you can just scroll the dashboard to see like, oh, all of the feed inside the dashboard is the artist that you like, like the artworks that you really like. So that's basically subject.

Speaker 1: 21:09

So it's almost like a self curation tool or a social feed to make sure that the content is just focused on the art rather than. I guess most traditional social media platforms are very polluted spaces. So it's kind of keeping the focus on what people have created and following the creators you love best. What sort of traction has it seen? I know it's very early stages and you're just sort of developing the platform, but have you seen any early interest and curiosity about what it is you've built?

Speaker 2: 21:40

yeah, I mean, uh, the support from the community has been tremendous. We reached um 7 000 thieves or so total volume just two days ago, I believe. So it's the referral, so it's only on object as well. So if it's combined with TIA it must be more, maybe less than twice over the amount. But, yeah, the support from the community has been great, from the feedbacks on the artworks not the artworks, but the app what is lacking or what could be improved.

Speaker 2: 22:09

But I think it's not really really done yet. My work with jack hasn't been been complete yet on subject, because we want to make it like a final release later on down the line. But jack is just still really busy. He's a he's a lit project, just like me as well, in real life in spain. So we gotta take more time on the finalization of the artwork itself. But yeah, I think I think the community right now, even though that is just a beta version, it's enough for for jack and I to to run the server just sustainably in, uh, in the next maybe like a year or two.

Speaker 1: 22:44

So that's, that's certainly amazing from the community so you basically have a really strong proof of concept. And then you know there are so many art marketplaces that exist on Tezos, so being able to bring them and converge them into a single platform is going to be very, very powerful for the community. And then, looking, you know, in terms of other, I mean perhaps it's too early to tell, but are there upcoming features or collaborations you're working on?

Speaker 2: 23:08

Yeah, I do. On subject, we are thinking about making our own smart contract. I think that has been always the goal. Right, because we want, we want to make a like a carting process so you can just both buy a couple of art that you really like and also maybe both sell a couple of art that you want to sell, perhaps, yeah, but above all, I think the subject itself.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I don't think it will be replacing the marketplaces, like the hats and also object, because the discoverability in subject is practically zero. Right, because you, you have to know the artist first if you want to follow them. So the discoverability or responsibility, or maybe like that, what do you want? Uh, privilege, perhaps it has to be on the marketplace itself, not in the, the dashboard. So I don't think Subject will ever replace the thing, like Object or maybe Theia or FX has.

Speaker 2: 24:00

But we do want to make it even better for the collector to collect things frictionlessly in the dashboard itself, because right now what we have, object, is very heavy for a collector to browse the artwork that they want. Usually, like me perhaps, you need to open like 10 tabs at the same time to check the art and also the artists, what are they doing or something. But in subject, you can just open one tab and it's really easy and also really light to use, at least for collecting a post of the artist that you already know. But yeah, let's not stop in there, you gotta go into the microplaces as well to look for the new artists so essentially, for now it's a highly curated feed.

Speaker 1: 24:45

It's as you said, it's very personalized to the artists that you want to follow and you want to watch. But perhaps there's a function in the future where you can add the discovery component and you know associated artists, similar artists or basically just letting people dip their toes into the broader tezos art universe based off of their initial selections. And that, all being said, I mean it sounds like an incredibly powerful platform and a really, really good tool. You know Web3 and art has sort of seen a lot of evolution in the last few years. It's been through some pretty dark times and it's improved a lot. But do you still feel that Web3 is sort of delivering on its promise for what it can do when it comes to empowering artists? Are there any areas you think that have room for improvement or what are your thoughts on the way that the Web3 art space is evolving?

Speaker 2: 25:37

Well, I don't really have like a very deep thoughts about it yet, but I do think that Web3 itself still delivers what it promises, at least to the artists. Well, maybe a little less about the speculative collectors, of course, right now, especially because everything just went downhill, but I think the downhill is certainly needed. I think because it it shapes off a lot of these speculation. I mean, speculation is not really that right, it's one part of the art investing I'm myself doing it in in the artists that I do and I collect, well, even though I I haven't been selling anything that I collected in Tezos right now. But I think it has to be in there for the collector to go out of their way to buy a digital artwork and you know, to buy Tezos from the Coinbase perhaps, or any other exchange Interact with the artist and buy the artwork and you own it on your wallet. And buy the artwork and you own it on your wallet. I think it has to be the motivation behind those hustle, has to be like a slow um, you know slow layers of positive things, right, and I think certainly speculation or investment, or you know the economical benefits of it. It has to be inside of the layer. If not, it's going to be like a complete, you know, altruistic, which is, I think, is not sustainable in a decade or so.

Speaker 2: 26:58

So, web3 for me, it still promises. It's still able to fulfill the promise of the artists to be taking their own custody of what they created and sell, in the form of digital, of course, but I think it could be improved. Yes, indeed, I think Maybe the physicals is going to be the future. I do vehemently believe so, which is the thing that I tried to do right now myself, well, only when I got the time. But yeah, I think, I think that's, that's all, the, the custody or the the ownership of the artwork. It wouldn't, it wouldn't just go away. Um, yeah, I think that's it for me, marissa.

Speaker 1: 27:36

So the foundational technologies are all there to make the most of what this can do, but there's still so many other avenues to explore. Is what I'm hearing that we have the basics down in terms of ownership principles, smart contracts, you know, royalty payments for artists in perpetuity, all of those sorts of components, but in terms of how it creatively spins out into different kinds of marketplaces, different kinds of social platforms, community models, it's still very early. It's still just the beginning.

Speaker 2: 28:04

Yeah, indeed, I think it's fairly, fairly early.

Speaker 2: 28:06

I mean, if I take a parallel line from Akira Toriyama, which is the creator of Dragon Ball, I think it'd take him for about two decades or so to make manga out of the former shell which is porn and gambling promoters, I think back in his early days, to be something that is more family-friendly, to be something that is more creative.

Speaker 2: 28:31

Finally, it has been admitted to be this might be a form of art, the medium itself, and also to shift the people's form of fine art, you know, like the medium itself, and also to to shift the people's perspective of the really bad thing in the past, which is the gambling, and also like the porn, especially the porn. Well, manga is still very porn like nowadays, but I mean before that, before that, like fujiko fujio, which is the creator of doraemon, like osamu tezuka sensei and also akira toriy, they are, you know when, really really hard to convince people in the form of making it just work, you know, making it work for little kids to read, making it work for, you know, like creative people, to enjoy as an entertainment, not only as porn, not only as advertising. So I think we could learn a lot from them. We definitely need trailblazers, of course, and we have a lot in the space. I think they're very, very strong people right now.

Speaker 1: 29:26

Yeah, and I think there is something to be said about the fact that this isn't going to change overnight this is going to be a decade or two decades of a process and that it's not necessarily something we can rush, nor should rush, in order to get to the result that we're actually aiming for. Because I do think, you know, crypto has also had a very bad rap in terms of its reputation, in terms of similar principles, in terms of gambling and hedonism and trying to sort of win, and in terms of what this can actually mean on a some more foundational level for good and for artists, for families, for future generations. It may not look like it now, but it doesn't mean it can't be in the future.

Speaker 2: 30:04

Yeah, absolutely, I'm also on that kind of a belief.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Yeah, we are still fighting, oddly of you know what you're working with on subject and also you you continuing to expand your art practice. What are the sort of things that you want to put out into the tesla's community sphere in terms of what you're looking for in terms of you know, do you need developers to continue helping you on subjects? Do you need artists that you want to collaborate with? If you could sort of make your statement or your call out to the tesla's, what would it be?

Speaker 2: 30:36

Oh, I think developers will be nice If we have more of them in the space right now. I think we have a lot of smart developers in the space, right, but not all of them are ready or willing to be committed into a project, for obvious reasons, right, because you need money to run things. So only a couple of privileged people who can, you know? Either they self-sustain themselves with what they do in real life or they ask for a grant as well, right, and Jack and I, because we are well, we are, like I said, we are privileged. Perhaps we do things in our real life as well. We have our own job, our nine-to-five, and then it could just self-find what we have right now on subject. But I don't think most of the developers are on that hill, perhaps so obviously understandable if they couldn't really bring themselves to commit, because it just takes a long, long, long time to make an app to work without Fype coding, of course, because Fype coding will generate a lot of the technical devs later on, but more devs will be wonderful, which is already already here, I think. So there's. I have seen a couple of new lab things for creating apps, just like Fafo. Shout out to Fafo, which is co-founded by Skulls Army, and also Paul, who is a ghost, so both of them banded together to create this one product, which is Reject R-E-J-K-T. So it's very similar to Subject and also Object. It's been a trend right now. But yeah, they're the the app right there. Basically it showcases the artists who haven't really got a sale for a while and also haven't been featured in object and also have a less than maybe like a hundred total volume on their artworks and what have you. So I think the trend will will go further in in 2025. I think by the end of 2025, we will see like maybe 3 or maybe like 4 new theme, like a theme to develop more tools and also develop more apps.

Speaker 2: 32:49

I'm so excited for that one, certainly, but I think the most stark need that we need in Texas right now is the middle class collectors or the middle class creators. Perhaps they make webcomics daily or maybe weekly in Tazer's platforms or their own platform and sell it for a digital collectibles right, and also like the collectors who are actually not collectors in real life, just like regular Jake. He's an electrician, like a certified electrician, but he has a passion in collecting artworks. He has a passion in nurturing, even nurturing artists as well, and making products with them.

Speaker 2: 33:40

I think we need more of those brilliant people. So they are not in the mindset of the gallery, they are not in the mindset of a museum perhaps, or even I would say, I dare say the more sophisticated side of the artwork art world, but maybe someone who are just like, just like me, like doing design and then occasionally going into the taser's hemisphere to to see something to collect right and something that is inspiring. I have, I have been doing that for three years and it improved my design tremendously. I dare say, yeah, I think, I think those two will be nice more developer and more middle section, part of the community, the middle class.

Speaker 1: 34:19

So we need to mobilize people to become more passionate about art yet again, and also developers who are not only sort of keen to invest their potential into something that is going to take the entire art space forward, but are also sort of receptive and malleable to the way that the space is actually changing, so that they can react and adapt and improve accordingly. Meg, this was super illuminating and it's super exciting to hear what you're working on with Subject as well as your own personal art. I'm sure we will chat again, but I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your perspectives today.

Speaker 2: 34:51

Thank you, thanks a lot. Appreciate you, appreciate the theme as well. Thank you very.