Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Test Talks Radio. I am Marissa True, and today we are spotlighting one of the members of Fortify Labs, the Web3 startup studio that was led by TZAPAC, and I am joined by Stan Kozyakov, the co-founder of Renora, a non-custodial SaaS platform that makes crypto investing simple and systematic through automation of simple and effective investment strategies. So, hi, stan, how are you today?

Speaker 2: 0:24

Hey, marissa, great to be here with you. I'm doing great.

Speaker 1: 0:27

So typically on this show we always start with the story of our guest, so I would love to better understand how you entered into the world of Web3. And by that token, also Tezos as well.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Sure happy to share a bit more about our background. So myself, I've been building ventures all my career long for the past about eight years or so, and last venture that I had was in the data intelligence space, so it was extremely profitable. It was, concisely, actually during the COVID period, so we were growing quite fast and since the venture has been very, very profitable, we are doing a quite significant amount of returns. That I had to invest into something that's where I also explored crypto. That was back in 2020 or 2021. And very quickly we noticed that the investment process was extremely manual and tedious and since the volatility of the markets are always very unpredictable, we decided then to solve this problem for ourselves and to actually build something that can automate those processes for us. And that's how.

Speaker 2: 1:33

Renora was actually not intended for public use, it was for internal purposes only, and we built this project. We built also a couple of engines to backtest our strategies and we launched it with our own funds, which was doing quite well. The launch was about 2022, when actually the bear market was happening, but that's where we are able to systematically buy the dips very effectively as we are approaching lower prices and within my network, some friends were starting asking if they can use it as well. So we were like, okay, sure, give it a try. And within just about four to five months we were already managing over six figures. And that's where we realized that we probably need to incorporate to keep it compliant. And at the same time we identified there is potentially a market gap that we can solve for and therefore then we decided eventually to actually incorporate Renora. We got you know the name and everything in marketing from there onwards, and that's how Renora eventually was born, out of this kind of need. And, yeah, that's how we all started.

Speaker 1: 2:42

So, from what I'm understanding, you actually created Renora or at least the engine that runs it for personal use to basically simplify crypto trading and investment, but it was because you had demand from your closer network that you thought let them try it, and I guess that was sort of the pilot test to validate it in the market, and that's what led it to become a startup. Is that right?

Speaker 2: 3:06

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: 3:07

So the interesting part is, first, validation for us was that people were topping up their funds to increase their returns, so to say, that was the first indicator.

Speaker 2: 3:17

And then we thought, if people are really putting on the funds, we were wondering if they would be willing to pay for the service as well. So initially I just, you know, reached out to them and I said, hey, you've been using the service for the past few months. How do you like it? Would you be willing to pay for it? How much would you be willing to pay for it? And they said, yeah, we will pay X amount, based on you know how much they were, you know utilizing it. And I literally started, you know, invoicing them very manually, just sending like a QR code for PayNow, sending an invoice just to validate that people are willing to pay for the service as such. And after that we realized, okay, this has quite strong validation that people are using it, they're topping up their funds and, as well as they're paying for it. That's where we thought, okay, then it kind of makes sense for us to incorporate and offer it to a broader public.

Speaker 1: 4:07

So then, how exactly does the platform work? Like if I were a user to come onto the Renora site. What am I doing? How am I engaging with it?

Speaker 2: 4:17

Yeah, so we initially actually started very simply by connecting the software to an existing exchange like Binance, cryptocom, okex and Coinbase. These are the four that we have integrated already. It's very simple you sign up on Renora, you go through the process of onboarding and you can connect the exchange of your choice through API keys. We have tutorials for that and step-by-step process as well, which you can follow tutorials for that and step-by-step process as well, which you can follow. And once you have connected the exchange with the platform, from there you are able to do all the other functionalities, so you basically are able to see which funds you're holding in your account or sub-account and then from there, you can select a strategy of your choice and let it run.

Speaker 2: 4:59

So this is how we initially started, and then, actually just this year, we started actually expanding into DeFi right. So we started deploying similar functionalities as we have on centralized exchanges into which is like, for example, on Etherlink as well as Arbitrum, xrpl, because we are starting receiving more requests from DeFi savvy investors who wanted to actually utilize the same functionality, but not necessarily on exchange. And that's how our product became kind of twofold, where we have a CeFi product and then we have a DeFi product, which are currently a little bit separated, but down the road we foresee perhaps merging them together and as a user, you would have a similar journey where you're able to actually choose are you connecting exchange or are you connecting straight away your wallet to move forward?

Speaker 1: 5:46

Yeah, so was the DeFi product sort of spun out of a demand of the early user base that Renora had, or was it sort of something where you felt was a natural next step in terms of, I guess, expanding Renora's product portfolio?

Speaker 2: 6:01

Yeah, actually both, because on one hand, we have been receiving some requests and on the other hand, if you look at the statistics, there's been one released of usage between decentralized exchanges versus centralized exchanges. You can actually see that since about four years the usage of DEXs has been rising consistently. So there's a decent trend to be seen in that direction, because a lot of users want to start taking more custody for their own and responsibility for their funds, because especially what happened back with FTX, so to say. So, this actually was part of our roadmap. Anyway, we saw that we are going to be moving towards DeFi at one point or another, and it was just very convenient that there were opportunities that struck our way, like as, for example, with Fortify Labs, and we decided then to take that approach and go ahead and start developing into that space too. So now we are kind of live there and trying to get more user base, to actually get more DeFi savvy.

Speaker 1: 7:06

And so, when it comes to the customers that use Renora, is there a clear indication or preference for the CeFi product or the DeFi product, or is there a shifting trend in the way that I guess users want to interact with either side?

Speaker 2: 7:20

Yeah, so actually the funny part is that, as I shared with you, we had this initial traction that was just coming very organically within our network and after we had a user base substantial user base of, you know, managing over six figures we're actually trying to see, okay, who are these people actually who are using our platform? Why are they using our platform? Right, and we started to identify a pattern there and we noticed these are usually very busy professionals with income of about six figures. They have disposable income, they are decently crypto savvy or they're financially savvy. They see the potential in digital assets and therefore they want to have exposure in it. The only thing they don't have is the time. They don't have the time to manage it, and that's where Renora was actually coming in perfectly for them is, in a way, that it was automating those strategies passively and they were just receiving notifications that it has done something for them, like buying the dip, and then that's where it kind of came into.

Speaker 2: 8:18

Where it comes to DeFi users, the user base is still very, very initial stage, but we're starting seeing a pattern of very DeFi-oriented users so who already have been in the market for the past approximately four years or so. They usually would prefer to keep self-custody of their funds and then run it on DeFi. They're very comfortable using DeFi protocols, so to say right, and that's where they are. You know, for them it's not a big deal to connect their wallet to a particular app like ours and to run it through a DEX so that they're able to monetize on the same benefits, so to say, that are currently being offered by CeFi. But that's where we are looking forward to kind of grow our user base now of those you know crypto savvy individuals, or you can sometimes even call them whales if they have those you know amounts.

Speaker 2: 9:13

But nonetheless, aside from those two models, we are starting to identify a new third model which started to emerge. Is that a B2B2C model, right? So we have already initiated a couple of partnerships with other platforms who are offering, you know, asset management services for digital assets, and they would like to also utilize some functionalities that Renora provides under the hood so they can white label it to their clientele directly. And that's how we actually do look forward to expand. Our value proposition is that Renora doesn't always have to be the client facing platform out there, but we can actually distribute the value across partnerships across the globe to make digital assets as simple and systematic as we say.

Speaker 1: 10:03

I guess on the CeFi side it's a bit like a robo-advisor, so it's to basically facilitate people, or retail investors in particular, to invest in digital assets or to help them participate in the digital asset market, while I guess for the DeFi side it's a lot more for the crypto natives, who are very familiar with this game and basically want a platform or a service to streamline however they want to operate. And then the third leg would be the institutional side. So Renora, by that end, kind of becomes more of a service in the back end for these institutions than it is a direct client-facing product. Is that right?

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right to say, and actually, you know, touching on that, we also identified a trend that a lot of people who are entering the digital asset space, they usually tend to enter it through a CeFi product, right, because it's so easy to on-ramp or deposit funds, so to say.

Speaker 2: 11:01

In other words, it's much, much user-friendly, more intuitive for them. So that's how they usually start off from and then they, once they get deeper down the rabbit hole, they're like oh, there's actually a completely new world out there in the d5 space that I want to explore, and that's how they get more familiarized with, you know, wallets and all this kind of other self-custody solutions where they're able then to go and, you know, leverage on other uh protocols which are in the offered in the defi space, right, and that that trend is kind of, like, you know, correlates with um, the usage of daxes that we started seeing as well, and and therefore, uh, you know, I think for us personally it was a great starting point because we kind of tapped into um, you know, a market that initiates from and then moving forward towards defi as well.

Speaker 1: 11:48

Yeah, Okay, so C5 is sort of like the starting step, so it's the initial draw in before people, I guess, become more aware of or like increase their education levels around crypto and how to, how to interact with it, and then basically they level up through DeFi and then I guess on the institutional side that's sort of its own separate stream, but you can sort of carry that user journey through as they become more familiar and comfortable with crypto.

Speaker 2: 12:13

Yep, yep, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1: 12:16

And also you are based out of Singapore. Was that a conscious decision? Or why was sort of APAC the, I guess, the optimal market to build a service like this?

Speaker 2: 12:27

Yeah, that's right. So one of the reasons was I was already based in Singapore. I knew the ecosystem quite well, I have a network here, so that was just from size point, like it was convenience on one hand, but we also identified that Singapore is among the biggest hubs for digital assets out there, as well as it's the hub for a lot of financial institutions. So being at the spot here, it really opens a lot of doors and opportunities for us. So that was the second part of the decision.

Speaker 2: 13:00

To actually be based here is because we are able to actually meet very influential people face to face. We are able to actually meet very influential people like face-to-face, and we are being also introduced to some people through programs like Fortify Labs as well as Singapore Management University, where we are incubated. So all those introductions are made very, very simply in a way that, because we are based here, we are able to meet those people face-to-face. And especially for institutional clientele, it's very important to actually meet the person, uh, to understand who's who's the founder behind renora and can we trust this platform, and so on, so forth, and that basically builds a lot of trust.

Speaker 1: 13:40

As well as that, we are incorporated here as well so I agree with you that singapore is kind of a a hotbed of the digital asset industry, but at the same time, you know we can't escape a lot of the regulatory rhetoric that's sort of coming from the US, especially because it's an election year. How do you see the way people interact with digital assets over here, sort of being impacted by what's happening all the way across in the States?

Speaker 2: 14:09

Yeah, I think it's still picking up quite slowly. There have been a lot of drawbacks that happened with FTX and so on. A lot of people got burned Also, we noticed, for example, last year it was a long winter that has been lasting, and a lot of people didn't want to attach on digital assets. So it has been a challenge for Renora as well, because we launched in September 2022, just before FTX crashed, so to say and that brought in a long winter.

Speaker 2: 14:40

But we still believe in what we're building is because this kind of occurrence is not the first time, right? This kind of occurrence is not the first time, right? If you look back in the history of crypto, there's been other exchanges that went under and this has been happening over and over again because there were no proper regulations in place, of course, but we also got a strong validation from the market that people are willing to utilize that, and we knew that once the recovery of the market happens, people will turn back to digital assets. That where are we going to be ready to actually offer our service? And we're mainly focused on building the new product that we're seeing today.

Speaker 1: 15:18

Do you think people's relationship with digital assets has changed over the last couple of years? We saw quite a big drop off in in retail investment, mainly because, you know, risk appetite for something as volatile as crypto was sort of validated by the fact that the market did collapse and we all faced like, as you said, a very long and cold crypto winter. But now that we're sort of in the midst of the next cycle, do you see a difference in the way people respond to digital assets, whether it's through renora or whether it's, you know, through your network and conversations that you have with people who are not necessarily directly involved in this industry?

Speaker 2: 15:57

absolutely, um, absolutely, we, we are had our previous clientele that kind of also went mia, uh, after the crash, so to say, right and um, as the markets, like during thetime, the markets were picking up, but very, very slowly, if you, if you look back in the price chart, right, almost insignificantly Right, and even then people were not really willing to enter the back into the market, although we were giving a lot of you know feedback about hey, this is a good opportunity because the crypto cycle repeats about every four years and if you look back in history now it's like the good time to invest. So we are quite heavily involved in the crypto ecosystem by hosting crypto branches, for example. That's what we initiated, also back last year, approximately October, and we could see that people are still hesitating to kind of get into the space, right, although they been in the space already, but they got burned. And then, as um, you know, towards october last year, um, we have seen a huge pump happening right due to etfs, and then suddenly everyone started talking about crypto and then suddenly people calling us and and signing up like, hey, how can I invest? And I was like, hey, I was telling you like three months ago to get ready for it and invest, but now you're coming in like a little bit, you know, once the pump has happened, right, but nonetheless, I mean it's still a good opportunity to enter because we haven't even reached, you know, close to the peak of the market, at least from my perspective. And it's still a good time to enter because we haven't even reached close to the peak of the market, at least from my perspective, and it's still a good time to enter.

Speaker 2: 17:32

But we definitely saw a huge difference in the behavior and another data point that we have, for example. So, aside from the investment part, we have another initiative project that we launched, called W3Eai. It's basically an events aggregator. So, while we are in the crypto space, we also want to stay up to date what events are happening in Singapore and in the other regions? So we built this aggregator that can collect the data from Meetup as well as Eventbrite and puts it all into one platform, and we could see that the number of events happening over the past, like one year or so, has been continuously increasing, right, and that also shows that, um, people are becoming more aware about the space and starting to, uh, try to attract more audience, and and people are starting to go to more events, so it becomes like a, a cycle that kind of goes upwards like a spiral by itself. So that's another data point that shows us that people are becoming more and more aware about it.

Speaker 1: 18:33

Yeah, and I guess it's also another sort of correlational indicator of the health of the industry as well, like, the more events there are, there's more to talk about, there's more people to attract and therefore there's probably more action in the market, and I think a tool like that would have been especially good to know about following token 2049, which was last week, and I don't know whether you partook in all of the mayhem that was, the thousands of side events that were taking place in the span of a week.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Yeah, but everyone is using that one specific Excel sheet, so it's probably the.

Speaker 1: 19:06

You know, the lowest tech is always like the most friendly to people usually yeah, which is something that's always blown my mind that for a very tech forward industry, um, and I think an aggregator would be so helpful, but somehow tens of thousands of us have all decided the the google sheet is the best way to go yeah so sometimes it just works.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yes, sometimes the simple stuff just works. So then, I would love to also explore what your experience was like in working with Fortify Labs. Obviously, tza Pack are based out of Singapore as well. They've created this Web3 startup studio. How did you come to discover Fortify Labs and talk us through the journey of Renora through it?

Speaker 2: 19:59

through it. Yeah, yeah, so how we got in touch was actually that I was pitching at one of the other events founder events and one of the members called Julian. He reached out to me he said like hey, we're launching this new program and Renora could be a good fit for that. So that's how he, you know, got me in touch with the program manager and we wanted to understand better how the program is structured and after that, call it kind of like really makes sense. It was a very synergetic opportunity, I think, because, as I shared, like we were already planning to go into DeFi and that's where the program kind of came in at a really right timing. The program kind of came in at a really right timing where they were offering different services and support to do that kind of deployment. So that's how we kind of got into this partnership and since about February or March last this year, yeah, and what was the experience actually like?

Speaker 1: 20:53

Like, how did Renora, I guess, mature over the course of the program?

Speaker 2: 20:57

Yeah, so they have been extremely supportive for us in different ways. On the marketing side, so just recently, during the token, we had a booth where we are exhibiting at one of the major site events organized by Tezos, as well as on the other side, from the technical side, they also had a team that was supporting us on the development right, because we had to also kind of get our hands dirty on how those things work, especially when it comes to on-chain development. So they had a team to support us in that as well and overall, they have an advisory that also, you know, putting us in touch with the right decision makers. Bd Arm, I have to say, was really, really the best support so far, who is very well connected and is able to put us in touch, you know again, with potential partnerships as well as clientele.

Speaker 1: 21:55

So it sounds like there were sort of different factions that could help out with different dimensions of the business and I guess, in terms of business development, probably being one of the things that Renora would benefit from the most, that was sort of where a lot of energy was channeled In as far as Renora in its current state and then bringing it to whatever future state you have envisioned. What are sort of the next steps that you're currently working on?

Speaker 2: 22:21

Yeah. So what we're really excited about is to since we're already deployed on DeFi, we want to actually make the audience more aware about that, as we are seeing that there might be a potential recession coming in. Although the markets have been pumping quite a bit, there might be a correction coming into the market and I think we want to make people pretty much aware about the opportunity. It's almost like the last opportunity that they can take before the next bull run kind of kicks in and utilize, make full use of the tools that we provide and we use ourselves to, for example, buy the dips right, so to systematically deploy that capital over the next, let's say, three to six months and then from there being able to then huddle it out to the next bull run peak, so to say. But on the technical side, so to say, we are continuously evolving our products on the DeFi space as well, in a way that, aside from just purchasing or automating the purchasing process, we will be integrating also yield protocols so that your assets that you buy will automatically be channeled into yield protocols, so that your capital constantly works for you, and then, last but not least, also integrating selling protocol, which will be selling it at peaks and then you can set your targets.

Speaker 2: 23:41

For example, okay, once, let's say, bitcoin reaches 180K, then sell the peaks for me. You can unstake it, for example, and then sell the peaks for me to lock in the profits and then from there onwards again you can go and lend it out on another yield protocol, so that your capital constantly works for us. So our goal, our vision, is to automate this whole cycle of investing, taking that opportunity, generating yield and exiting the market and generating yield as well, so that your capital constantly works for you and fully passively, and you basically can focus on your day-to-day regular commitments that you have. So that's kind of like we're building a tool almost for ourselves, but we're happy to kind of offer it to the greater public so that everyone can make use of it and not necessarily need to be like a pro trader to automate this kind of you know, processes.

Speaker 1: 24:39

Yeah, and I think that's often the sticky point or the thing that blocks people from participating in any kind of investment, whether it's digital assets or the traditional market is this idea of I have to be switched on at all times and know exactly what's going on at all times, even if we're not necessarily the most financially literate yet or just starting our investment journey. So it sounds like, on the one hand, you're handling sort of the education and the awareness building for the actual user base, but on the more technical side, it's more about automation and simplifying the user journey to make people more comfortable and more confident with investing altogether Again, whether it's digital assets or whether conventional assets.

Speaker 2: 25:22

Yes, yes, that's right. Like even for myself when I started trading and investing into crypto, like even then, it was quite a challenge, because when you're managing one asset, okay, it's still kind of doable. But imagine you're managing eight to 10 different tokens that you are invested into and they all run kind of concurrently. There's correlation, but they still have their individual drops and peaks and so on, and that becomes a nightmare, because now you have to really coordinate how much capital you're going to allocate for each drop of the market and you have to calculate the plot size, and there's just so many variables in between that you have to do manually. And that's where we really decided to automate that process and backtest it to be sure that, hey, what we're doing actually makes a lot more sense than if I would do it manually, so to say. And from a portfolio standpoint as well, we were really surprised that a lot of people still use Excel sheets or Google sheets to manage their portfolio, Whereas we have built out a very simple portfolio management tool where you just plug in your exchanges.

Speaker 2: 26:26

It will automatically sync up all the balances and orders for you, and the cool part about this is that a lot of exchanges they just provide you the transactions that you've made you buy, sell and so on. So people have to really figure out themselves which positions they're still holding. What Renora does for you is actually it shows you the positions right, so it will automatically match the buy and sell orders together and will show you how much of asset do you have left for each order that you have executed as a position. And then you know, okay, these positions are profitable and these are not. So you know how much you can liquidate for profit and which positions you might want to hold on to.

Speaker 2: 27:04

So, surprisingly, this still doesn't really exist in the crypto space. It does exist in the traditional markets. So when we entered the space, I was like how do people do that? I asked my friends they're like we're using sheets. I'm like, okay, there's something to be solved as well. So, yeah, a lot of this industry is really new. I think there's a lot of problems still to be solved down the road.

Speaker 1: 27:27

So, by that token, it's about making sure all of the fundamentals and the bare basics are handled as this industry continues to grow.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:42

So the final question I have for you is that if anyone is actually looking to learn more about Renora or potentially want to start investing or begin their crypto journey where they, where can they find more information?

Speaker 2: 27:49

Absolutely so. One way to go about it is to follow us on Twitter. Our handle is Renora underscore IO Very simple. Or find us on LinkedIn as well. Handle is renora underscore IO Very simple. Or find us on LinkedIn as well.

Speaker 2: 27:58

We do publish our updates there, and the best way to learn is to get your hands dirty. So just get started. You can do it with Renora or without, but please just kind of start it with a small amount and learn how those things are being done. And once you overcome the biggest challenge of starting I think that's where things become much simpler Once your hands are a little bit dirty, you're kind of getting familiar with all those things and you're getting more comfortable. Then you understand, you know how much risk you can take and start deploying more capital, so to say right, no matter if it's on CeFi or DeFi. So that's how people should get started when it comes to learning more. So, again, following our channels is probably the best way. We have a blog as well that we are running on our website under renorio. You can sign up and then all kinds of new information that we're sharing about the market conditions, as well as new ways to be able to systematically invest are going to be shared there too.

Speaker 1: 29:01

So plenty of tools and information for people to sink their teeth into, and if there's one lesson here is it's way less scary once you actually get started.

Speaker 2: 29:09

Absolutely. I remember my old, early days as well as well.

Speaker 1: 29:19

Yeah, I think we I think we all have firmly planted in our memory our first experience of buying cryptocurrency and then looking back on it now and thinking I am so far from that start point. So I guess it's about encouraging everyone else to sort of begin that journey if it's right for them.

Speaker 2: 29:30

So just wanted to add on to this. I think you know from what we are starting to see how digital assets are becoming more of a mainstream like started off with ETFs and now you know major platforms are starting to, you know, offer it to a broader public. We start also seeing platforms that pop out that gives you the ability to pay with debit cards, with crypto. I see definitely that digital assets is like the new trend that's going to be coming sooner or later, and the sooner we educate ourselves about it, the more opportunities we can tap onto right. Nobody wants to stay behind, so to say, about this, because this is like, so to say, the new internet.

Speaker 1: 30:13

I think it's fantastic sort of final words, but, stan, thank you so much for running us through Renora, everything that you are building with it, and also just giving us a bit of your take about the way you see the digital asset market unfolding over the near future. There's plenty of resources that you cited, so I highly encourage anyone who's listening to go and check them out, and otherwise it would be great to keep up to date with Renora and its growth. So thank you so much again for joining us on Test Talks.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Hey, marisa, it was really great to talk to you and thanks for having us.