Building Renora

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to Test Talks Radio . I am Marissa True , and today we are spotlighting one of the members of Fortify Labs , the Web3 startup studio that was led by TZAPAC , and I am joined by Stan Kozyakov , the co-founder of Renora , a non-custodial SaaS platform that makes crypto investing simple and systematic through automation of simple and effective investment strategies . So , hi , stan , how are you today ?

Speaker 2 0:24

Hey , marissa , great to be here with you . I'm doing great .

Speaker 1 0:27

So typically on this show we always start with the story of our guest , so I would love to better understand how you entered into the world of Web3 . And by that token , also Tezos as well .

Speaker 2 0:38

Sure happy to share a bit more about our background . So myself , I've been building ventures all my career long for the past about eight years or so , and last venture that I had was in the data intelligence space , so it was extremely profitable . It was , concisely , actually during the COVID period , so we were growing quite fast and since the venture has been very , very profitable , we are doing a quite significant amount of returns . That I had to invest into something that's where I also explored crypto . That was back in 2020 or 2021 . And very quickly we noticed that the investment process was extremely manual and tedious and since the volatility of the markets are always very unpredictable , we decided then to solve this problem for ourselves and to actually build something that can automate those processes for us . And that's how .

Speaker 2 1:33

Renora was actually not intended for public use , it was for internal purposes only , and we built this project . We built also a couple of engines to backtest our strategies and we launched it with our own funds , which was doing quite well . The launch was about 2022 , when actually the bear market was happening , but that's where we are able to systematically buy the dips very effectively as we are approaching lower prices and within my network , some friends were starting asking if they can use it as well . So we were like , okay , sure , give it a try . And within just about four to five months we were already managing over six figures . And that's where we realized that we probably need to incorporate to keep it compliant . And at the same time we identified there is potentially a market gap that we can solve for and therefore then we decided eventually to actually incorporate Renora . We got you know the name and everything in marketing from there onwards , and that's how Renora eventually was born , out of this kind of need . And , yeah , that's how we all started .

Speaker 1 2:42

So , from what I'm understanding , you actually created Renora or at least the engine that runs it for personal use to basically simplify crypto trading and investment , but it was because you had demand from your closer network that you thought let them try it , and I guess that was sort of the pilot test to validate it in the market , and that's what led it to become a startup . Is that right ?

Speaker 2 3:06

Yeah , that's right .

Speaker 2 3:07

So the interesting part is , first , validation for us was that people were topping up their funds to increase their returns , so to say , that was the first indicator .

Speaker 2 3:17

And then we thought , if people are really putting on the funds , we were wondering if they would be willing to pay for the service as well . So initially I just , you know , reached out to them and I said , hey , you've been using the service for the past few months . How do you like it ? Would you be willing to pay for it ? How much would you be willing to pay for it ? And they said , yeah , we will pay X amount , based on you know how much they were , you know utilizing it . And I literally started , you know , invoicing them very manually , just sending like a QR code for PayNow , sending an invoice just to validate that people are willing to pay for the service as such . And after that we realized , okay , this has quite strong validation that people are using it , they're topping up their funds and , as well as they're paying for it . That's where we thought , okay , then it kind of makes sense for us to incorporate and offer it to a broader public .

Speaker 1 4:07

So then , how exactly does the platform work ? Like if I were a user to come onto the Renora site . What am I doing ? How am I engaging with it ?

Speaker 2 4:17

Yeah , so we initially actually started very simply by connecting the software to an existing exchange like Binance , cryptocom , okex and Coinbase . These are the four that we have integrated already . It's very simple you sign up on Renora , you go through the process of onboarding and you can connect the exchange of your choice through API keys . We have tutorials for that and step-by-step process as well , which you can follow tutorials for that and step-by-step process as well , which you can follow . And once you have connected the exchange with the platform , from there you are able to do all the other functionalities , so you basically are able to see which funds you're holding in your account or sub-account and then from there , you can select a strategy of your choice and let it run .

Speaker 2 4:59

So this is how we initially started , and then , actually just this year , we started actually expanding into DeFi right . So we started deploying similar functionalities as we have on centralized exchanges into which is like , for example , on Etherlink as well as Arbitrum , xrpl , because we are starting receiving more requests from DeFi savvy investors who wanted to actually utilize the same functionality , but not necessarily on exchange . And that's how our product became kind of twofold , where we have a CeFi product and then we have a DeFi product , which are currently a little bit separated , but down the road we foresee perhaps merging them together and as a user , you would have a similar journey where you're able to actually choose are you connecting exchange or are you connecting straight away your wallet to move forward ?

Speaker 1 5:46

Yeah , so was the DeFi product sort of spun out of a demand of the early user base that Renora had , or was it sort of something where you felt was a natural next step in terms of , I guess , expanding Renora's product portfolio ?

Speaker 2 6:01

Yeah , actually both , because on one hand , we have been receiving some requests and on the other hand , if you look at the statistics , there's been one released of usage between decentralized exchanges versus centralized exchanges . You can actually see that since about four years the usage of DEXs has been rising consistently . So there's a decent trend to be seen in that direction , because a lot of users want to start taking more custody for their own and responsibility for their funds , because especially what happened back with FTX , so to say . So , this actually was part of our roadmap .

Evolution of Digital Asset Adoption

Speaker 2 6:40

Anyway , we saw that we are going to be moving towards DeFi at one point or another , and it was just very convenient that there were opportunities that struck our way , like as , for example , with Fortify Labs , and we decided then to take that approach and go ahead and start developing into that space too . So now we are kind of live there and trying to get more user base , to actually get more DeFi savvy .

Speaker 1 7:06

And so , when it comes to the customers that use Renora , is there a clear indication or preference for the CeFi product or the DeFi product , or is there a shifting trend in the way that I guess users want to interact with either side ?

Speaker 2 7:20

Yeah , so actually the funny part is that , as I shared with you , we had this initial traction that was just coming very organically within our network and after we had a user base substantial user base of , you know , managing over six figures we're actually trying to see , okay , who are these people actually who are using our platform ? Why are they using our platform ? Right , and we started to identify a pattern there and we noticed these are usually very busy professionals with income of about six figures . They have disposable income , they are decently crypto savvy or they're financially savvy . They see the potential in digital assets and therefore they want to have exposure in it . The only thing they don't have is the time . They don't have the time to manage it , and that's where Renora was actually coming in perfectly for them is , in a way , that it was automating those strategies passively and they were just receiving notifications that it has done something for them , like buying the dip , and then that's where it kind of came into .

Speaker 2 8:18

Where it comes to DeFi users , the user base is still very , very initial stage , but we're starting seeing a pattern of very DeFi-oriented users so who already have been in the market for the past approximately four years or so . They usually would prefer to keep self-custody of their funds and then run it on DeFi . They're very comfortable using DeFi protocols , so to say right , and that's where they are . You know , for them it's not a big deal to connect their wallet to a particular app like ours and to run it through a DEX so that they're able to monetize on the same benefits , so to say , that are currently being offered by CeFi . But that's where we are looking forward to kind of grow our user base now of those you know crypto savvy individuals , or you can sometimes even call them whales if they have those you know amounts .

Speaker 2 9:13

But nonetheless , aside from those two models , we are starting to identify a new third model which started to emerge . Is that a B2B2C model , right ? So we have already initiated a couple of partnerships with other platforms who are offering , you know , asset management services for digital assets , and they would like to also utilize some functionalities that Renora provides under the hood so they can white label it to their clientele directly . And that's how we actually do look forward to expand . Our value proposition is that Renora doesn't always have to be the client facing platform out there , but we can actually distribute the value across partnerships across the globe to make digital assets as simple and systematic as we say .

Speaker 1 10:03

I guess on the CeFi side it's a bit like a robo-advisor , so it's to basically facilitate people , or retail investors in particular , to invest in digital assets or to help them participate in the digital asset market , while I guess for the DeFi side it's a lot more for the crypto natives , who are very familiar with this game and basically want a platform or a service to streamline however they want to operate . And then the third leg would be the institutional side . So Renora , by that end , kind of becomes more of a service in the back end for these institutions than it is a direct client-facing product . Is that right ?

Speaker 2 10:44

Yeah , yeah , that's right , that's right to say , and actually , you know , touching on that , we also identified a trend that a lot of people who are entering the digital asset space , they usually tend to enter it through a CeFi product , right , because it's so easy to on-ramp or deposit funds , so to say .

Speaker 2 11:01

In other words , it's much , much user-friendly , more intuitive for them . So that's how they usually start off from and then they , once they get deeper down the rabbit hole , they're like oh , there's actually a completely new world out there in the d5 space that I want to explore , and that's how they get more familiarized with , you know , wallets and all this kind of other self-custody solutions where they're able then to go and , you know , leverage on other uh protocols which are in the offered in the defi space , right , and that that trend is kind of , like , you know , correlates with um , the usage of daxes that we started seeing as well , and and therefore , uh , you know , I think for us personally it was a great starting point because we kind of tapped into um , you know , a market that initiates from and then moving forward towards defi as well .

Speaker 1 11:48

Yeah , Okay , so C5 is sort of like the starting step , so it's the initial draw in before people , I guess , become more aware of or like increase their education levels around crypto and how to , how to interact with it , and then basically they level up through DeFi and then I guess on the institutional side that's sort of its own separate stream , but you can sort of carry that user journey through as they become more familiar and comfortable with crypto .

Speaker 2 12:13

Yep , yep , that's right , that's right .

Speaker 1 12:16

And also you are based out of Singapore . Was that a conscious decision ? Or why was sort of APAC the , I guess , the optimal market to build a service like this ?

Speaker 2 12:27

Yeah , that's right . So one of the reasons was I was already based in Singapore . I knew the ecosystem quite well , I have a network here , so that was just from size point , like it was convenience on one hand , but we also identified that Singapore is among the biggest hubs for digital assets out there , as well as it's the hub for a lot of financial institutions . So being at the spot here , it really opens a lot of doors and opportunities for us . So that was the second part of the decision .

Speaker 2 13:00

To actually be based here is because we are able to actually meet very influential people face to face . We are able to actually meet very influential people like face-to-face , and we are being also introduced to some people through programs like Fortify Labs as well as Singapore Management University , where we are incubated . So all those introductions are made very , very simply in a way that , because we are based here , we are able to meet those people face-to-face . And especially for institutional clientele , it's very important to actually meet the person , uh , to understand who's who's the founder behind renora and can we trust this platform , and so on , so forth , and that basically builds a lot of trust .

Speaker 1 13:40

As well as that , we are incorporated here as well so I agree with you that singapore is kind of a a hotbed of the digital asset industry , but at the same time , you know we can't escape a lot of the regulatory rhetoric that's sort of coming from the US , especially because it's an election year . How do you see the way people interact with digital assets over here , sort of being impacted by what's happening all the way across in the States ?

Speaker 2 14:09

Yeah , I think it's still picking up quite slowly . There have been a lot of drawbacks that happened with FTX and so on . A lot of people got burned Also , we noticed , for example , last year it was a long winter that has been lasting , and a lot of people didn't want to attach on digital assets . So it has been a challenge for Renora as well , because we launched in September 2022 , just before FTX crashed , so to say and that brought in a long winter .

Speaker 2 14:40

But we still believe in what we're building is because this kind of occurrence is not the first time , right ? This kind of occurrence is not the first time , right ? If you look back in the history of crypto , there's been other exchanges that went under and this has been happening over and over again because there were no proper regulations in place , of course , but we also got a strong validation from the market that people are willing to utilize that , and we knew that once the recovery of the market happens , people will turn back to digital assets . That where are we going to be ready to actually offer our service ? And we're mainly focused on building the new product that we're seeing today .

Speaker 1 15:18

Do you think people's relationship with digital assets has changed over the last couple of years ? We saw quite a big drop off in in retail investment , mainly because , you know , risk appetite for something as volatile as crypto was sort of validated by the fact that the market did collapse and we all faced like , as you said , a very long and cold crypto winter . But now that we're sort of in the midst of the next cycle , do you see a difference in the way people respond to digital assets , whether it's through renora or whether it's , you know , through your network and conversations that you have with people who are not necessarily directly involved in this industry ?

Speaker 2 15:57

absolutely , um , absolutely , we , we are had our previous clientele that kind of also went mia , uh , after the crash , so to say , right and um , as the markets , like during thetime , the markets were picking up , but very , very slowly , if you , if you look back in the price chart , right , almost insignificantly Right , and even then people were not really willing to enter the back into the market , although we were giving a lot of you know feedback about hey , this is a good opportunity because the crypto cycle repeats about every four years and if you look back in history now it's like the good time to invest .

Navigating Crypto and Event Aggregation

Speaker 2 16:37

So we are quite heavily involved in the crypto ecosystem by hosting crypto branches , for example . That's what we initiated , also back last year , approximately October , and we could see that people are still hesitating to kind of get into the space , right , although they been in the space already , but they got burned . And then , as um , you know , towards october last year , um , we have seen a huge pump happening right due to etfs , and then suddenly everyone started talking about crypto and then suddenly people calling us and and signing up like , hey , how can I invest ? And I was like , hey , I was telling you like three months ago to get ready for it and invest , but now you're coming in like a little bit , you know , once the pump has happened , right , but nonetheless , I mean it's still a good opportunity to enter because we haven't even reached , you know , close to the peak of the market , at least from my perspective . And it's still a good time to enter because we haven't even reached close to the peak of the market , at least from my perspective , and it's still a good time to enter .

Speaker 2 17:32

But we definitely saw a huge difference in the behavior and another data point that we have , for example . So , aside from the investment part , we have another initiative project that we launched , called W3Eai . It's basically an events aggregator . So , while we are in the crypto space , we also want to stay up to date what events are happening in Singapore and in the other regions ? So we built this aggregator that can collect the data from Meetup as well as Eventbrite and puts it all into one platform , and we could see that the number of events happening over the past , like one year or so , has been continuously increasing , right , and that also shows that , um , people are becoming more aware about the space and starting to , uh , try to attract more audience , and and people are starting to go to more events , so it becomes like a , a cycle that kind of goes upwards like a spiral by itself . So that's another data point that shows us that people are becoming more and more aware about it .

Speaker 1 18:33

Yeah , and I guess it's also another sort of correlational indicator of the health of the industry as well , like , the more events there are , there's more to talk about , there's more people to attract and therefore there's probably more action in the market , and I think a tool like that would have been especially good to know about following token 2049 , which was last week , and I don't know whether you partook in all of the mayhem that was , the thousands of side events that were taking place in the span of a week .

Speaker 2 19:01

Yeah , but everyone is using that one specific Excel sheet , so it's probably the .

Speaker 1 19:06

You know , the lowest tech is always like the most friendly to people usually yeah , which is something that's always blown my mind that for a very tech forward industry , um , and I think an aggregator would be so helpful , but somehow tens of thousands of us have all decided the the google sheet is the best way to go yeah so sometimes it just works .

Speaker 1 19:32

Yes , sometimes the simple stuff just works . So then , I would love to also explore what your experience was like in working with Fortify Labs . Obviously , tza Pack are based out of Singapore as well . They've created this Web3 startup studio . How did you come to discover Fortify Labs and talk us through the journey of Renora through it ?

Speaker 2 19:59

through it . Yeah , yeah , so how we got in touch was actually that I was pitching at one of the other events founder events and one of the members called Julian . He reached out to me he said like hey , we're launching this new program and Renora could be a good fit for that . So that's how he , you know , got me in touch with the program manager and we wanted to understand better how the program is structured and after that , call it kind of like really makes sense . It was a very synergetic opportunity , I think , because , as I shared , like we were already planning to go into DeFi and that's where the program kind of came in at a really right timing . The program kind of came in at a really right timing where they were offering different services and support to do that kind of deployment . So that's how we kind of got into this partnership and since about February or March last this year , yeah , and what was the experience actually like ?

Speaker 1 20:53

Like , how did Renora , I guess , mature over the course of the program ?

Speaker 2 20:57

Yeah , so they have been extremely supportive for us in different ways . On the marketing side , so just recently , during the token , we had a booth where we are exhibiting at one of the major site events organized by Tezos , as well as on the other side , from the technical side , they also had a team that was supporting us on the development right , because we had to also kind of get our hands dirty on how those things work , especially when it comes to on-chain development . So they had a team to support us in that as well and overall , they have an advisory that also , you know , putting us in touch with the right decision makers . Bd Arm , I have to say , was really , really the best support so far , who is very well connected and is able to put us in touch , you know again , with potential partnerships as well as clientele .

Automating Crypto Investing for Beginners

Speaker 1 21:55

So it sounds like there were sort of different factions that could help out with different dimensions of the business and I guess , in terms of business development , probably being one of the things that Renora would benefit from the most , that was sort of where a lot of energy was channeled In as far as Renora in its current state and then bringing it to whatever future state you have envisioned . What are sort of the next steps that you're currently working on ?

Speaker 2 22:21

Yeah . So what we're really excited about is to since we're already deployed on DeFi , we want to actually make the audience more aware about that , as we are seeing that there might be a potential recession coming in . Although the markets have been pumping quite a bit , there might be a correction coming into the market and I think we want to make people pretty much aware about the opportunity . It's almost like the last opportunity that they can take before the next bull run kind of kicks in and utilize , make full use of the tools that we provide and we use ourselves to , for example , buy the dips right , so to systematically deploy that capital over the next , let's say , three to six months and then from there being able to then huddle it out to the next bull run peak , so to say . But on the technical side , so to say , we are continuously evolving our products on the DeFi space as well , in a way that , aside from just purchasing or automating the purchasing process , we will be integrating also yield protocols so that your assets that you buy will automatically be channeled into yield protocols , so that your capital constantly works for you , and then , last but not least , also integrating selling protocol , which will be selling it at peaks and then you can set your targets .

Speaker 2 23:41

For example , okay , once , let's say , bitcoin reaches 180K , then sell the peaks for me . You can unstake it , for example , and then sell the peaks for me to lock in the profits and then from there onwards again you can go and lend it out on another yield protocol , so that your capital constantly works for us . So our goal , our vision , is to automate this whole cycle of investing , taking that opportunity , generating yield and exiting the market and generating yield as well , so that your capital constantly works for you and fully passively , and you basically can focus on your day-to-day regular commitments that you have . So that's kind of like we're building a tool almost for ourselves , but we're happy to kind of offer it to the greater public so that everyone can make use of it and not necessarily need to be like a pro trader to automate this kind of you know , processes .

Speaker 1 24:39

Yeah , and I think that's often the sticky point or the thing that blocks people from participating in any kind of investment , whether it's digital assets or the traditional market is this idea of I have to be switched on at all times and know exactly what's going on at all times , even if we're not necessarily the most financially literate yet or just starting our investment journey . So it sounds like , on the one hand , you're handling sort of the education and the awareness building for the actual user base , but on the more technical side , it's more about automation and simplifying the user journey to make people more comfortable and more confident with investing altogether Again , whether it's digital assets or whether conventional assets .

Speaker 2 25:22

Yes , yes , that's right . Like even for myself when I started trading and investing into crypto , like even then , it was quite a challenge , because when you're managing one asset , okay , it's still kind of doable . But imagine you're managing eight to 10 different tokens that you are invested into and they all run kind of concurrently . There's correlation , but they still have their individual drops and peaks and so on , and that becomes a nightmare , because now you have to really coordinate how much capital you're going to allocate for each drop of the market and you have to calculate the plot size , and there's just so many variables in between that you have to do manually . And that's where we really decided to automate that process and backtest it to be sure that , hey , what we're doing actually makes a lot more sense than if I would do it manually , so to say . And from a portfolio standpoint as well , we were really surprised that a lot of people still use Excel sheets or Google sheets to manage their portfolio , Whereas we have built out a very simple portfolio management tool where you just plug in your exchanges .

Speaker 2 26:26

It will automatically sync up all the balances and orders for you , and the cool part about this is that a lot of exchanges they just provide you the transactions that you've made you buy , sell and so on . So people have to really figure out themselves which positions they're still holding . What Renora does for you is actually it shows you the positions right , so it will automatically match the buy and sell orders together and will show you how much of asset do you have left for each order that you have executed as a position . And then you know , okay , these positions are profitable and these are not . So you know how much you can liquidate for profit and which positions you might want to hold on to .

Speaker 2 27:04

So , surprisingly , this still doesn't really exist in the crypto space . It does exist in the traditional markets . So when we entered the space , I was like how do people do that ? I asked my friends they're like we're using sheets . I'm like , okay , there's something to be solved as well . So , yeah , a lot of this industry is really new . I think there's a lot of problems still to be solved down the road .

Speaker 1 27:27

So , by that token , it's about making sure all of the fundamentals and the bare basics are handled as this industry continues to grow .

Speaker 2 27:35

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely yeah .

Speaker 1 27:42

So the final question I have for you is that if anyone is actually looking to learn more about Renora or potentially want to start investing or begin their crypto journey where they , where can they find more information ?

Speaker 2 27:49

Absolutely so . One way to go about it is to follow us on Twitter . Our handle is Renora underscore IO Very simple . Or find us on LinkedIn as well . Handle is renora underscore IO Very simple . Or find us on LinkedIn as well .

Speaker 2 27:58

We do publish our updates there , and the best way to learn is to get your hands dirty . So just get started . You can do it with Renora or without , but please just kind of start it with a small amount and learn how those things are being done . And once you overcome the biggest challenge of starting I think that's where things become much simpler Once your hands are a little bit dirty , you're kind of getting familiar with all those things and you're getting more comfortable . Then you understand , you know how much risk you can take and start deploying more capital , so to say right , no matter if it's on CeFi or DeFi . So that's how people should get started when it comes to learning more . So , again , following our channels is probably the best way . We have a blog as well that we are running on our website under renorio . You can sign up and then all kinds of new information that we're sharing about the market conditions , as well as new ways to be able to systematically invest are going to be shared there too .

Speaker 1 29:01

So plenty of tools and information for people to sink their teeth into , and if there's one lesson here is it's way less scary once you actually get started .

Speaker 2 29:09

Absolutely . I remember my old , early days as well as well .

Speaker 1 29:19

Yeah , I think we I think we all have firmly planted in our memory our first experience of buying cryptocurrency and then looking back on it now and thinking I am so far from that start point . So I guess it's about encouraging everyone else to sort of begin that journey if it's right for them .

Speaker 2 29:30

So just wanted to add on to this . I think you know from what we are starting to see how digital assets are becoming more of a mainstream like started off with ETFs and now you know major platforms are starting to , you know , offer it to a broader public . We start also seeing platforms that pop out that gives you the ability to pay with debit cards , with crypto .

Future of Digital Asset Education

Speaker 2 29:54

I see definitely that digital assets is like the new trend that's going to be coming sooner or later , and the sooner we educate ourselves about it , the more opportunities we can tap onto right . Nobody wants to stay behind , so to say , about this , because this is like , so to say , the new internet .

Speaker 1 30:13

I think it's fantastic sort of final words , but , stan , thank you so much for running us through Renora , everything that you are building with it , and also just giving us a bit of your take about the way you see the digital asset market unfolding over the near future . There's plenty of resources that you cited , so I highly encourage anyone who's listening to go and check them out , and otherwise it would be great to keep up to date with Renora and its growth . So thank you so much again for joining us on Test Talks .

Speaker 2 30:40

Hey , marisa , it was really great to talk to you and thanks for having us .